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Re: (ET) More Power Inverters



Hey everybody,

I think David was quoting National Electrical Code, which was created NOT to take away individual lierties, or create too many laws, or anything like that, but to reduce the number of people KILLED by incorrect use of electrical power.

So, I understand what is being disconnected here, and it seems that you know what you are doing - and that no Electric company guys are going to be killed by the way you are using your system.

Related to all this is Underwriters Laboratories, and Homeowners insurance and all that wonderful stuff ...

Just because of our national history with people dying due to problems or misuse of electricity ...

Which would be fine - if it were ONLY those people making the mistakes ... 'survival of the fittest - or NOT' ... but the laws and National Codes were/are set up to try to protect Utility workers, Firemen (who have to shut off power in case of burning buildings & floods & who knows what), family members, friends, neighbors, and maybe other people connected to whatever.

These 'alternate power' systems - and 'Disconnects' and similar related things are routinely discussed in a magazine called 'Home Power' - where they discuss Solar, Wind, Hydro, Petroleum fueled generators, and anything else you can thing of - and powering your house off grid and on, etc.

And a regular column in that magazine is called 'Code Corner' where various related issues are discussed - and relevant sections of the National Electrical Code (and proposed changes due to technology) are described.

I think David gave the 'Sermon' to help us all remember some of these things - and reduce the number of people NOT using the approved transfer switch - because, while ONE person might do it, and understand it all, and never make a mistake, and never get himself or anyone else killed ...

If we had 100 people doing same thing ... odds are that someone would get hurt or killed.

One last thought - about the comment on 'individual rights': You HAVE the individual right to produce your own power, and power your house. As soon as you have a connection from a public utility, you come under the jurisdiction of laws regulating that utility.

Even NOT connected to the utility, I think National Code still applies - as far as proper gage of wire for various circuits, proper insulation on that wire, safe switch and outlet boxes, etc - all so your house, and your neighbors house, does not burn down.

The way see it: Even if only your house burns down, but the modern plastics and whatever toxins created blow downwind, and harm some child, then you violated THAT child's rights ... I think you would agree - if your kids or grandkids were injured by someone elses error.

** Freedom is inversely proportional to population density **

Just thinking out loud here ... - Not trying to take any sides, or make anyone upset, just considering the Pro's and Con's - and reasons for all the laws and regulations.

BTW: (in power failure emergency, I run extension cord from inverter/UPS in basement, upstairs to refrigerator) - Or ...I pull the wire right out of my main breaker box, add a plug, and plug into my inverter (since a long extension cord can be a fire hazard also ...).
I don't own a transfer switch either.
If we start having frequent power problems, or if I buy a real generator, I would get the transfer switch.




----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Wallace" <metman glasgow-ky com>
To: <noaddress drmm net>; <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: (ET) More Power Inverters


Chill out guys, you're gettin' way too bent outta shape here.

And I'm sorry David, and maybe others also, but what I'm doing sure isn't
illegal where I live and I don't consider it dangerous either.  If it's
illegal where you live, then I'm guessing you live in an area where local or
state governments have way too much control over your individual rights.
Maybe you live in one of those liberal states where the government feels
they have to have a law for everything.  Having such laws doesn't keep
stupid people from doing dumb things.  And there are people out there that
probably shouldn't even be allowed to own tools, let alone do more than flip
on a light switch when it comes to anything electrical.  People need to be
responsible for their own actions.  If they do something stupid and get
electrocuted, then so be it.

Some of you guys must know a lot of people that have a lot more money than
common sense.  Even manual transfer switches aren't what I consider cheap,
let alone the costs to install one.

When I pull my main fuse block, it goes outside in back of the shop and
stays there with the generator. And I've never been "too tired, distracted,
or intoxicated to forget a step".  And I sure as hell wouldn't ask my wife
to make a switch like this on her own. Now for you guys with the automatic
transfer switch gear and all; well more power to you, but there's that $
again.

As for the "cord with two male ends hanging around the house", I fully agree
that that is very foolish.  My "cord" is a short piece of 10-3 SO with a
Russellstoll Ever-Lok plug that can only fit into the matching receptacle
mounted in the outside back wall of the shop. Besides, this cord is plugged into it's receptacle before the generator is started. Then the L14 plug on
the other end of the cord is connected to the now running generator.

When you only do this maybe once a year, my method works fine and costs
virtually nothing. If a guy can't remember the few simple steps to do this,
then he's probably one of those guys I spoke of earlier that shouldn't be
allowed to own tools, let alone an Elec-Trak or a generator.

As for the "little kids" around the house, my sons are 36 and 39, both are
in engineering fields, and neither is living at home.  This ain't my first
rodeo guys. I may live in Kentucky, but I wasn't born and raised here. But
I am proud to have lived down here for the last 34 years or so, south of
that old Ohio River.

Mike in KY

----- Original Message ----- From: "David Roden" <etpost drmm net>
To: <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: (ET) More Power Inverters


On 12 Dec 2007 at 8:54, Mike Wallace wrote:

I just pull the main fuse block in my panel
box, unplug the air compressor and then plug the output of the generator
into
that same outdoor receptacle and feed my power back into the house's
panel
box.  No fancy and expensive automatic switching/disconnect system, but
no
danger to power company crews working on the lines either.

Sorry, I have to mention that this procedure is illegal and dangerous.  I
don't think it's a good idea to promote it in a public place, such as a
listserve that's archived on the open web.

You may never electrocute a lineman or blow up your generator, but the
potential is there.  A little too tired, distracted, or intoxicated, and
you
can slip up or forget a step. Trying to talk the spousal unit through the
process on the cell phone, again there is a risk of missing something.

There's also the hazard of having a cord with two male ends hanging around
the house.  I hope you don't have any little kids.

A transfer switch can be as simple as a $100 (less on Ebay) Square D
lockout
panel for the backup loads.  It pretty much guarantees that you'll never
hurt anyone with your backup power system.  Cheap insurance, IMO.

The ET can be very useful for backup power, but I'd hate to see anyone
killed as a result of using it for that purpose.

End of sermon.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA

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