Re: [apmultiples] another rant from Valerie

["Nancy Whittier" <NWHITTIE email smith edu>]

Hi - I don't have time to respond at length, but I will say on the
two-mom thing, that it has never been an issue for us with Jonah's
unconventional gender choices.  No one has ever implied, to us or to
him, that he is the way he is because of having two moms, and he has
honestly never encountered homophobia in school, with friends, etc.  (We
live in Northampton, like Cate, where there are a lot of lesbian
families.  Jonah has always had at least one or two other kids in his
classes with two moms.)  I think it's maybe more of an issue for the
parents to work through, and less so for the kids.  The first few times
we took him out in pink, I just took a deep breath and did it, and it
was fine.  Adult men can wear pink, why not boys?  

More another time!

Nancy

>>> crowen comcast net 01/12/04 10:36 PM >>>
Well, I've been out of the loop with a busy weekend, and look what I
came
back to!  This is a great discussion, and it's helping to remind me that
it's not impossible to live my values.  I have to admit that I walked
into
too many stores/shopped in too many online places where it was girl
stuff on
one side, boy on the other, never the twain shall meet.  And it's so
hard to
find things that are neutral--it's as if the clothes manufacturers have
a
rule that they must put some gender-identifying item on every piece of
clothing--a bow, a flower, a soccer ball, a truck. UGH!  And while I can
find lots of cute stuff for my girl, avoiding a wardrobe consisting
solely
of items emblazoned with internal combustion engine vehicles is a major
challenge!  I love Hanna stuff too, but it's pricey and hard to find at
the
consignment shops!  It seems the gender neutral stuff comes mostly from
high-end places like Hanna, Gap, and Land's End.  Sigh.

And I have to admit that I've been feeling a bit chicken about choosing
clothes for Henry that transgress gender boundaries, especially since
there
isn't a dad in our home to sort of give him "permission."  When it's not
his
decision, it just feels weird to me.  I went through a phase where I
dressed
El in clothes from the boy side of the aisle, but that stunk because the
boy
clothes (once you've eliminated the licensed characters, the internal
combustion engines, and the sports motifs) are incredibly limited.  So
not
feeling comfortable going the other way, we went back to girl and boy
stuff.
I will also admit here that I have started to enjoy shopping for girl
clothes. ;)  It's not what I envisioned, in fact I remember when I was
much
younger fantasizing about refusing to tell people on the street whether
my
baby was a boy or a girl, and instead asking them why it mattered.  LOL.
 (I
was *much* younger.) :)

Now they're at an age where they are starting to have clothing
preferences.
After reading this thread (while NAK so I couldn't type till now), I had
two
shirts downstairs when Henry's flannel sleeve got wet.  I offered him
two
choices--a striped one and a very manly-looking (grin) flowered one.  He
chose the flowered one and wore it all day.  Now to send him to school
in
flowers and pink... :)

I'll be interested to join the discussion--please include me.  Nancy and
other two-mom family folks, I'm especially interested in how you manage
these issues.  I feel like I'm treading a fine line with Henry being the
only male in the family, the spectre of the homophobia he may face in
the
future, etc.  Just trying to figure out how to manage all this without
making a major deposit to the therapy fund, LOL.

Hugs,

Cate

PS: I think it would be great to open the list to people who have
single-born children only, too.  First, because I think lists need a
certain
number of people to stay lively, and second, because I think both kinds
of
perspectives would be useful.

PPS: I'd also love to discuss the book "Real Boys," which I *loved.*
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Whittier" <NWHITTIE email smith edu>
To: <apmultiples yahoogroups com>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: [apmultiples] another rant from Valerie


> Hey, another sociologist of gender!  I see the same views in my
> students, even at a fairly feminist women's college (alas).  I've
joked
> that with boy-girl twins, I  now have a naturalistic experiment in
> gender socialization (if I only had time to think harder about it).
>
> What gets to me is how every attribute that is consistent with gender
> stereotypes is chalked up to innate differences, while every attribute
> that is inconsistent with gender stereotypes is just an insignificant
> exception or a personality quirk.  A friend of mine with a very
"girly"
> boy was told that he was "not a real boy," therefore the
characteristics
> of "real boy" remain unchallenged by the boys who don't fit.
>
> Nancy
>
> >>> drwendi hotmail com 01/10/04 7:27 PM >>>
> I am a sociologist and one of the areas I teach is gender
socialization.
>
> The views of my students never fail to amaze (and irritate) me.  They
> are so
> convinced that there are innate differences and will point to the
> flimsiest
> research data to support their arguments completely overlooking all
the
> areas  in which boys and girls overlap.
>
> I am also continually bombarded with people attributing my own
> children's
> characteristics and personality to their gender.  Whenever someone
says,
> oh
> boys are this or girls are that I always contradict them and state no,
> that's just so and so's personality. My first daughter goes against a
> lot of
> the gender stereotypes in that she was slow to talk and she is the
only
> one
> of my six children to have learning difficulties.
>
> I would find this kind of discussion very interesting.
>
> Wendi
> mom to 6 from 9 months to 17 years
> >From: Valerie White <valerie forevermail com>
> >Reply-To: apmultiples yahoogroups com
> >To: apmultiples yahoogroups com
> >Subject: [apmultiples] another rant from Valerie
> >Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:18:16 -0500
> >
> >My understanding is that there is essentially no credible research to
> show
> >INNATE differences between baby boys and girls (other than what's in
> their
> >diapers!), but that adults react to babies differently based on their
> >perceived gender--one story I heard from a linguistics professor told
> of
> >the strong baby girl who was pulling herself up on her daddy's
fingers
> at
> >the doctor's office and a passing woman said, "Oh, what a strong boy
> you
> >are!"  When Daddy said, "She's a girl," the woman said, "Isn't it
nice
> of
> >Daddy to pull you up like that!"  In other words, as soon as she knew
> the
> >baby was a girl she stripped her of her agency.  Other research has
> shown
> >that parents are more protective of baby girls, respond more
> >sympathetically to their cries when they get hurt exploring, keep
them
> >closer to hand . . .  It is something we need to be aware of  and try
> to
> >compensate for in order to make vigorous, assertive,
self-actualizing,
> >authentic girls!!  (And sensitive, caring, introspective boys!)
> >
> >In actual fact, our girl twin, who was TWO pounds lighter at birth,
is
> WAY
> >more adventurous and physical than our boy twin . . . climbs
> everywhere,
> >runs everywhere, interacts with strangers, while he is intensely
> engaged in
> >making block towers or looking at books.
> >
> >Go figger.
> >
> >Valerie
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
>
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
>
>
> "There is no such thing in anyone's life as an unimportant day." -
> Alexander Woollcott, American Author
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apmultiples/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  apmultiples-unsubscribe yahoogroups com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> "There is no such thing in anyone's life as an unimportant day." -
Alexander Woollcott, American Author
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apmultiples/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  apmultiples-unsubscribe yahoogroups com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


"There is no such thing in anyone's life as an unimportant day." -
Alexander Woollcott, American Author
 


Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apmultiples/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 apmultiples-unsubscribe yahoogroups com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




"There is no such thing in anyone's life as an unimportant day." - 
Alexander Woollcott, American Author
 

Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apmultiples/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 apmultiples-unsubscribe yahoogroups com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/