Re: (ET) Re: ET new technology and abandening the ICE (Rod Hower)

["steves" <ssawtelle fcc net>]

I think we are fortunate to have at least two means to keep our tractors
going - fix the old or use new technology.

I agree with Chris that the control system inherent in the ET is pretty
optimal for a tractor.

I also agree that it can be tedious fixing aged connectors, relays, etc. 
All
winter I've been battling an intermittent lift connection (of course the
Alltrax wouldn't help there) and it's been too cold/rainy/windy to mess 
with
it.

Although the Alltrax is a sealed box, I see it as a way to resurrect ETs
that otherwise will rust away to nothing. I don't mind (on a nice day)
fooling with wires and relays, but most people just want to mow the lawn. 
If
I was fixing up an ET for someone like that, I'd seriously consider the
Alltrax. I kind of want to try one out anyway as a steppingstone to other 
EV
projects.

Anyway, I welcome anything that keeps these machines going. They are such a
good way to introduce people to alternative energy vehicles. And they are
fine tractors too!

- SteveS


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christopher Zach" <czach computer org>
To: <perry suppleye com>
Cc: <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: (ET) Re: ET new technology and abandening the ICE (Rod Hower)


> Ok. I always thought that the E20 controller could be understood by just
> about anyone. It's just a matter of having the schematic and tracing
> wires around.
>
> Will the schematic for the Alltrax be in the public domain? Or is it a
> sealed box that you simply chuck when and if it goees bad?
>
> We are a disposable society. Disposable diapers, controllers, lawn
> mowers, tractors.
>
> *sigh*
> Chris
>
>
> Perry Cain wrote:
>
> > For those of us who are neither purists, nor electrical engineers, it
seems
> > to me that the Alltrax is the way to go.
> > I have been reading this board for quite some time, and since I am only
a
> > computer programmer, I cannot understand most of what is said here.  I
won't
> > be replacing any diodes, I am ordering an Alltrax!
> >
> >
> > perry suppleye com
> > Perry Cain
> > Akron OH
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: elec-trak-bounces cosmos phy tufts edu
> > [mailto:elec-trak-bounces cosmos phy tufts edu] On Behalf Of
> > elec-trak-request cosmos phy tufts edu
> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:52 PM
> > To: elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> > Subject: Elec-trak Digest, Vol 2, Issue 136
> >
> > Send Elec-trak mailing list submissions to
> > elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > elec-trak-request cosmos phy tufts edu
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > elec-trak-owner cosmos phy tufts edu
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific 
> > than
> > "Re: Contents of Elec-trak digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1.  breadboard fixed (Chris Zach)
> >    2. Re:  Rookie questions on an E20 (Chris Zach)
> >    3. Re:  ET new technology and abandening the ICE (Rod Hower)
> >    4. Re:  ET new technology and abandening the ICE (Chris Zach)
> >    5. Re:  ET new technology and abandening the ICE (Rod Hower)
> >    6. Re:  ET new technology and abandening the ICE (Chris Zach)
> >    7. Re:  ET new technology and abandening the ICE (John B Reinhard)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 20:11:14 -0400
> > From: Chris Zach <czach computer org>
> > Subject: (ET) breadboard fixed
> > To: Elec-trak list <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> > Message-ID: <4071F5A2 9020104 computer org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >
> > Ok, the breadboard is fixed. Basically what I did was replace all four
of
> > the diodes with good old fashioned 3amp diodes from Radio Shack. The
larger
> > diodes have a forward voltage drop of .5 volts as opposed to 1.0 volts
for
> > the smaller ones. So I took a drill, enlarged the holes in the PCB
slightly,
> > and soldered in the new diodes.
> >
> > Put it back in; works like a champ. As a bonus, speeds 6 and 7 now come
> > online. Now if I could just get a voltmeter that *works* and a bulb for
the
> > cruise control switch I would be 100% set for the summer.
> >
> > Meantime I will put in an order for 22 ohm resistors and the other
oddball
> > types and replace everything in the fall.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 20:31:40 -0400
> > From: Chris Zach <czach computer org>
> > Subject: Re: (ET) Rookie questions on an E20
> > To: Steve George <steve george comdev ca>, Elec-trak list
> > <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> > Message-ID: <4071FA6C 9020908 computer org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >
> >
> >>1.  Should anything happen when I turn on the key? - i.e should any of
> >>the relays click? Should the gauges show the charge state?
> >
> >
> > Yup. When you power the key, relays 1 and two should click in. It's a
soft
> > sound, but is there. If you open the top of the relay panel you should
see
> > them move.
> >
> >
> >>2. I've found the seat and brake safety switches - are there any more?
> >
> > Nope. If they are set (sitting in seat, brake on) then power is applied
to
> > the two relays and the contactor bus is active and ready to shoot.
> >
> > Assuming of course the disconnect is in.
> >
> >
> >>3. When I press in the 'Disconnect switch' The gauges do show the
> >>charge state and resistor elements get hot (nothing connected to the
> >>PTO). Is this normal? Should the PTO contactor click?
> >
> >
> > Nope. The motor should *not* be on unless the pedal is down. And the 
> > big
> > front resistors should not get warm. Stop what you are doing, pop the
panel
> > under the steering wheel and check your contactors; one is probably
stuck in
> > the on position. tap lightly with a hammer to see if they loosen up.
> >
> >
> >>4. When I attempt to charge - with the disconnect out nothing happens
> >>(except the transformer hums). with the disconnect in the resistors
> >>get hot as before. Is this correct? (I can't see any change in battery
> >>voltage but also can't believe the resistors should get hot during
> >
> > charging).
> >
> > Once again, contactor is stuck.
> >
> >
> >>5. Does anyone have a circuit diagram for the E20?
> >
> >
> > Bill Gunn has the manual. Get it. It is without a doubt the best
resource;
> > it has *EVERY* schematic and trouble tree.
> >
> > it will tell you everything.
> >
> >
> >>6. I assume the large contactors are part of the motor speed control
> >>system, but what is the function of the relays at the top of the plate
> >>(behind the switches)?
> >
> >
> > The relays control the response of the contactors to the various
interlocks.
> > Seat, brake, switch, etc. One relay controls the lock-in of the field
> > weakening circuit, another controls reverse, and another controls the
cruise
> > control system.
> >
> >
> >
> >>7. How does the cruise control system work? - is this the function of
> >>the PCB's and components.
> >
> >
> > naah, it's as dumb as a box of hammers. Just holds in the 4th speed
> > contactor (full power, full field) bypassing the throttle switches. If
the
> > throttle is blipped, or any of the interlocks are hit, the CC shuts 
> > off.
> >
> > The only thing that matters on the PCB for getting the tractor going is
the
> > two diodes to the bottom right. They are part of a set of four and they
> > provide the power to the field. The rest of the PCB is simply a current
> > comparitor that allows or shuts down the field weakening circuit under
high
> > motor load. If it's dead speeds 6,7,8 are down, but that's it.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>Like I said - I need help. - Once I've got it running I'll start on
> >>the mower and blower...
> >
> >
> > Call Bill Gunn. He has all the answers.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 18:18:36 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Rod Hower <rodhower ameritech net>
> > Subject: Re: (ET) ET new technology and abandening the ICE
> > To: Elec-trak list <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> > Message-ID: <20040406011836 33693 qmail web80602 mail yahoo com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > You need an Alltrax control!
> > I plan on ordering one tomorrow.
> > I know there are diehards on the list that prefer to keep original
> > equipment, but I will upgrade mine to the latest technology.  Like
others on
> > the list I plan on using this tractor as a practical machine and don't
care
> > much about keeping it original.
> > I would have converted an ICE machine to electric, but it's much easier
to
> > get an Elec Trak going, even if it is 30+ years old.  My mower deck 
> > will
use
> > 3 BLDC motors from work with lots of 'engineering' to connect the mower
> > blade.  I would have used the original PMDC mower motors, but the blade
and
> > mounting hardware were in very bad shape and required me to dismember
the
> > parts.
> > I'll post pictures when the job is finished.
> > Lots of work, but worth the effort since I don't have to listen to the
gas
> > engine.
> > Rod
> > --- Chris Zach <czach computer org> wrote:
> >
> >>Ok, the breadboard is fixed. Basically what I did was replace all four
> >>of the diodes with good old fashioned 3amp diodes from Radio Shack.
> >>The larger diodes have a forward voltage drop of .5 volts as opposed
> >>to 1.0 volts for the smaller ones. So I took a drill, enlarged the
> >>holes in the PCB slightly, and soldered in the new diodes.
> >>
> >>Put it back in; works like a champ. As a bonus, speeds 6 and 7 now
> >>come online. Now if I could just get a voltmeter that
> >>*works* and a bulb for
> >>the cruise control switch I would be 100% set for the summer.
> >>
> >>Meantime I will put in an order for 22 ohm resistors and the other
> >>oddball types and replace everything in the fall.
> >>
> >>Chris
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>
> >
> > https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:11:37 -0400
> > From: Chris Zach <czach computer org>
> > Subject: Re: (ET) ET new technology and abandening the ICE
> > To: Rod Hower <rodhower ameritech net>
> > Cc: Elec-trak list <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> > Message-ID: <407211D9 3060102 computer org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >
> >  > You need an Alltrax control!
> >
> > I need an Alltrax controller like I need a hole in my head.
> >
> > Seriously: The Elec-Trak controller is the model of simplicity and
logic. I
> > have seven speeds times four gears; that's enough to get me the speed
> > control I need. I have regen and braking for excellent overall speed
> > control. And I have a little circuit that measures the armature current
and
> > shuts down the field weakening circuit automagically when I overload 
> > the
> > motor.
> >
> > And cruise control with a little light. What more can I need?
> >
> > This is not a car, where you want a wide amount of speed settings. I
have 28
> > possibilties between 0 and 7 miles per hour. That's not bad. And
besides, I
> > usually use this thing for constant speed applications like mowing the
lawn
> > or blowing snow. Having a controller that never gives me the same speed
> > twice would be annoying.
> >
> > There might be a point in the fact the the E15's controller is a lot
more
> > parsnickety. This appears to be the case; it's logic board tries to do 
> > a
lot
> > of things that the inherent nature of having contactors does for the
E-20
> > (there are no timing circuits on the E20 for example; the contactors
provide
> > the time for you). And the E20 reverses the motor the
> > *right* way: By reversing the armature with contactors as opposed to 
> > the
> > field with relay points. The E15 was a cheaper design, but one can fix
that
> > too with simple discrete components.
> >
> > So for $5.00 for four diodes from Radio Shack my controller is fixed.
> > And will probably last for another 30 years. At which time I'll simply
> > replace the components again instead of scratching my head looking at a
> > solid-state thingie. I'm sure Radio space shack will sell diodes in
2034.
> >
> > Probably the only remaining weak link is the relays. And to be honest
when
> > they die I could just build a 36 volt to 24 volt power controller for
$5.00
> > and replace the relays with modern 24 volt ones. Sealed too.
> > $25.00 and that's all done for the next 30 years.
> >
> > There's a place for everything. A contactor controller doesn't really
belong
> > on a car (like the Renault electrics) and a digital control doesn't
really
> > belong on a lawn tractor.
> >
> > As for using the tractor: My E20 is my main mowing and plowing machine.
> > The simpler the better. BLDC mower motors are nice, but it adds
complexity
> > when the omputer blows out.
> >
> > Chris Zach
> >
> >
> >
> > Rod Hower wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I plan on ordering one tomorrow.
> >>I know there are diehards on the list that prefer to keep original
> >>equipment, but I will upgrade mine to the latest technology.  Like
> >>others on the list I plan on using this tractor as a practical machine
> >>and don't care much about keeping it original.
> >>I would have converted an ICE machine to electric, but it's much
> >>easier to get an Elec Trak going, even if it is 30+ years old.  My
> >>mower deck will use 3 BLDC motors from work with lots of 'engineering'
> >>to connect the mower blade.  I would have used the original PMDC mower
> >>motors, but the blade and mounting hardware were in very bad shape and
> >>required me to dismember the parts.
> >>I'll post pictures when the job is finished.
> >>Lots of work, but worth the effort since I don't have to listen to the
> >>gas engine.
> >>Rod
> >>--- Chris Zach <czach computer org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Ok, the breadboard is fixed. Basically what I did was replace all four
> >>>of the diodes with good old fashioned 3amp diodes from Radio Shack.
> >>>The larger diodes have a forward voltage drop of .5 volts as opposed
> >>>to 1.0 volts for the smaller ones. So I took a drill, enlarged the
> >>>holes in the PCB slightly, and soldered in the new diodes.
> >>>
> >>>Put it back in; works like a champ. As a bonus, speeds 6 and 7 now
> >>>come online. Now if I could just get a voltmeter that
> >>>*works* and a bulb for
> >>>the cruise control switch I would be 100% set for the summer.
> >>>
> >>>Meantime I will put in an order for 22 ohm resistors and the other
> >>>oddball types and replace everything in the fall.
> >>>
> >>>Chris
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>>
> >>
> >>https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Rod Hower <rodhower ameritech net>
> > Subject: Re: (ET) ET new technology and abandening the ICE
> > To: Chris Zach <czach computer org>, Rod Hower
> > <rodhower ameritech net>
> > Cc: Elec-trak list <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> > Message-ID: <20040406022537 15008 qmail web80606 mail yahoo com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Chris,
> > The GE control is over 30 years old.
> > Well designed but not the best upgrade for this machine.  I think the
> > Alltrax control offers simplicity and better operation for people that
can't
> > deal with failing relays and SCR's that are over 30 years old. I'll
admitt
> > that my mower solution is not for everybody, in fact it's probably only
for
> > me since I have access to free parts to perform this operation.
However,
> > the Alltrax control offers many users a simple and effective 
> > replacement
for
> > an antiquated control.
> > Rod.
> > --- Chris Zach <czach computer org> wrote:
> >
> >> > You need an Alltrax control!
> >>
> >>I need an Alltrax controller like I need a hole in my head.
> >>
> >>Seriously: The Elec-Trak controller is the model of simplicity and
> >>logic. I have seven speeds times four gears; that's enough to get me
> >>the speed control I need. I have regen and braking for excellent
> >>overall speed control. And I have a little circuit that measures the
> >>armature current and shuts down the field weakening circuit
> >>automagically when I overload the motor.
> >>
> >>And cruise control with a little light. What more can I need?
> >>
> >>This is not a car, where you want a wide amount of speed settings. I
> >>have 28 possibilties between 0 and 7 miles per hour.
> >>That's not bad. And
> >>besides, I usually use this thing for constant speed applications like
> >>mowing the lawn or blowing snow. Having a controller that never gives
> >>me the same speed twice would be annoying.
> >>
> >>There might be a point in the fact the the E15's controller is a lot
> >>more parsnickety. This appears to be the case; it's logic board tries
> >>to do a lot of things that the inherent nature of having contactors
> >>does for the E-20 (there are no timing circuits on the E20 for
> >>example; the contactors provide the time for you). And the E20
> >>reverses the motor the
> >>*right* way: By reversing the armature with contactors as opposed to
> >>the field with relay points. The E15 was a cheaper design, but one can
> >>fix that too with simple discrete components.
> >>
> >>So for $5.00 for four diodes from Radio Shack my controller is fixed.
> >>And will probably last for another 30 years. At which time I'll simply
> >>replace the components again instead of scratching my head looking at
> >>a solid-state thingie. I'm sure Radio space shack will sell diodes in
> >>2034.
> >>
> >>Probably the only remaining weak link is the relays.
> >>And to be honest
> >>when they die I could just build a 36 volt to 24 volt power controller
> >>for $5.00 and replace the relays with modern 24 volt ones. Sealed too.
> >>$25.00 and that's all done for the next 30 years.
> >>
> >>There's a place for everything. A contactor controller doesn't really
> >>belong on a car (like the Renault electrics) and a digital control
> >>doesn't really belong on a lawn tractor.
> >>
> >>As for using the tractor: My E20 is my main mowing and plowing
> >>machine.
> >>The simpler the better. BLDC mower motors are nice, but it adds
> >>complexity when the omputer blows out.
> >>
> >>Chris Zach
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Rod Hower wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I plan on ordering one tomorrow.
> >>>I know there are diehards on the list that prefer to keep original
> >>>equipment, but I will upgrade
> >>
> >>mine
> >>
> >>>to the latest technology.  Like others on the list I plan on using
> >>>this tractor as a practical
> >>
> >>machine
> >>
> >>>and don't care much about keeping it original.
> >>>I would have converted an ICE machine to electric, but it's much
> >>>easier to get an Elec Trak going,
> >>
> >>even
> >>
> >>>if it is 30+ years old.  My mower deck will use 3
> >>
> >>BLDC
> >>
> >>>motors from work with lots of 'engineering' to
> >>
> >>connect
> >>
> >>>the mower blade.  I would have used the original
> >>
> >>PMDC
> >>
> >>>mower motors, but the blade and mounting hardware
> >>
> >>were
> >>
> >>>in very bad shape and required me to dismember the parts.
> >>>I'll post pictures when the job is finished.
> >>>Lots of work, but worth the effort since I don't
> >>
> >>have
> >>
> >>>to listen to the gas engine.
> >>>Rod
> >>>--- Chris Zach <czach computer org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Ok, the breadboard is fixed. Basically what I did was replace all
> >>>>four of the diodes with good old fashioned 3amp diodes from Radio
> >>>>Shack. The larger diodes have a forward voltage drop of .5 volts as
> >>>>opposed to 1.0 volts for the smaller ones. So I took a drill,
> >>>>enlarged the holes in the PCB slightly, and soldered in the new
> >>>>diodes.
> >>>>
> >>>>Put it back in; works like a champ. As a bonus, speeds 6 and 7 now
> >>>>come online. Now if I could just get a voltmeter that
> >>>>*works* and a bulb for
> >>>>the cruise control switch I would be 100% set for the summer.
> >>>>
> >>>>Meantime I will put in an order for 22 ohm
> >>
> >>resistors
> >>
> >>>>and the other
> >>>>oddball types and replace everything in the fall.
> >>>>
> >>>>Chris
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>>>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> > https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>>
> >>
> > https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:43:58 -0400
> > From: Chris Zach <czach computer org>
> > Subject: Re: (ET) ET new technology and abandening the ICE
> > To: Rod Hower <rodhower ameritech net>
> > Cc: Elec-trak list <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> > Message-ID: <4072196E 3040708 computer org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >
> > Mmm... I'm over 30 years old. And still going pretty well.
> >
> > I'm not going to blast the Alltrax controller; it's probably a great
> > product. I just don't see the reasoning behind going with a more 
> > complex
> > solution when a simpler one can do the job.
> >
> > Then again my 68 911L Porsche has carburators. Which do require a 
> > little
bit
> > of work to keep running, happy, drop of oil, etc. But I will say
> > this: When I was on the highway and my accel cable broke I simply 
> > turned
the
> > idle screws up to 4,000 RPM and drove the car home.
> >
> > When my 95 Dodge Caravan with it's computer controlled 3.0L engine
decided
> > it didn't want to run anymore I was dead as a doornail. There is no way
you
> > can bypass the MPS, or work around a shot computer. You're stuck on the
side
> > of the road.
> >
> > Yes, carbs have their downside (less efficient, more pollution) but the
> > computer that they rely on is in your noggin. Same for the E20. When it
> > comes to technology I like my products to be as dumb as a box of
hammers.
> >
> > Simpler to fix in a pinch. Like when it's snowing.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > Rod Hower wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Chris,
> >>The GE control is over 30 years old.
> >>Well designed but not the best upgrade for this machine.  I think the
> >>Alltrax control offers simplicity and better operation for people that
> >>can't deal with failing relays and SCR's that are over 30 years old.
> >>I'll admitt that my mower solution is not for everybody, in fact it's
> >>probably only for me since I have access to free parts to perform this
> >>operation.  However, the Alltrax control offers many users a simple
> >>and effective replacement for an antiquated control.
> >>Rod.
> >>--- Chris Zach <czach computer org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>You need an Alltrax control!
> >>>
> >>>I need an Alltrax controller like I need a hole in my head.
> >>>
> >>>Seriously: The Elec-Trak controller is the model of simplicity and
> >>>logic. I have seven speeds times four gears; that's enough to get me
> >>>the speed control I need. I have regen and braking for excellent
> >>>overall speed control. And I have a little circuit that measures the
> >>>armature current and shuts down the field weakening circuit
> >>>automagically when I overload the motor.
> >>>
> >>>And cruise control with a little light. What more can I need?
> >>>
> >>>This is not a car, where you want a wide amount of speed settings. I
> >>>have 28 possibilties between 0 and 7 miles per hour.
> >>>That's not bad. And
> >>>besides, I usually use this thing for constant speed applications like
> >>>mowing the lawn or blowing snow. Having a controller that never gives
> >>>me the same speed twice would be annoying.
> >>>
> >>>There might be a point in the fact the the E15's controller is a lot
> >>>more parsnickety. This appears to be the case; it's logic board tries
> >>>to do a lot of things that the inherent nature of having contactors
> >>>does for the E-20 (there are no timing circuits on the E20 for
> >>>example; the contactors provide the time for you). And the E20
> >>>reverses the motor the
> >>>*right* way: By reversing the armature with contactors as opposed to
> >>>the field with relay points. The E15 was a cheaper design, but one can
> >>>fix that too with simple discrete components.
> >>>
> >>>So for $5.00 for four diodes from Radio Shack my controller is fixed.
> >>>And will probably last for another 30 years. At which time I'll simply
> >>>replace the components again instead of scratching my head looking at
> >>>a solid-state thingie. I'm sure Radio space shack will sell diodes in
> >>>2034.
> >>>
> >>>Probably the only remaining weak link is the relays.
> >>>And to be honest
> >>>when they die I could just build a 36 volt to 24 volt power controller
> >>>for $5.00 and replace the relays with modern 24 volt ones. Sealed too.
> >>>$25.00 and that's all done for the next 30 years.
> >>>
> >>>There's a place for everything. A contactor controller doesn't really
> >>>belong on a car (like the Renault electrics) and a digital control
> >>>doesn't really belong on a lawn tractor.
> >>>
> >>>As for using the tractor: My E20 is my main mowing and plowing
> >>>machine.
> >>>The simpler the better. BLDC mower motors are nice, but it adds
> >>>complexity when the omputer blows out.
> >>>
> >>>Chris Zach
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Rod Hower wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I plan on ordering one tomorrow.
> >>>>I know there are diehards on the list that prefer to keep original
> >>>>equipment, but I will upgrade
> >>>
> >>>mine
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>to the latest technology.  Like others on the list I plan on using
> >>>>this tractor as a practical
> >>>
> >>>machine
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>and don't care much about keeping it original.
> >>>>I would have converted an ICE machine to electric, but it's much
> >>>>easier to get an Elec Trak going,
> >>>
> >>>even
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>if it is 30+ years old.  My mower deck will use 3
> >>>
> >>>BLDC
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>motors from work with lots of 'engineering' to
> >>>
> >>>connect
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>the mower blade.  I would have used the original
> >>>
> >>>PMDC
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>mower motors, but the blade and mounting hardware
> >>>
> >>>were
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>in very bad shape and required me to dismember the parts.
> >>>>I'll post pictures when the job is finished.
> >>>>Lots of work, but worth the effort since I don't
> >>>
> >>>have
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>to listen to the gas engine.
> >>>>Rod
> >>>>--- Chris Zach <czach computer org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Ok, the breadboard is fixed. Basically what I did was replace all
> >>>>>four of the diodes with good old fashioned 3amp diodes
> >>>>
> >>>>>from Radio Shack. The
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>larger diodes have a forward voltage drop of .5 volts as opposed to
> >>>>>1.0 volts for the smaller ones. So I took a drill, enlarged the
> >>>>>holes in the PCB slightly, and soldered in the new diodes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Put it back in; works like a champ. As a bonus, speeds 6 and 7 now
> >>>>>come online. Now if I could just get a voltmeter that
> >>>>>*works* and a bulb for
> >>>>>the cruise control switch I would be 100% set for the summer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Meantime I will put in an order for 22 ohm
> >>>
> >>>resistors
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>and the other
> >>>>>oddball types and replace everything in the fall.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Chris
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>>>>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >>
> >>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>>>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:52:07 -0400
> > From: "John B Reinhard" <reinharj frontiernet net>
> > Subject: Re: (ET) ET new technology and abandening the ICE
> > To: <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> > Message-ID: <000d01c41b8a$88bde680$6401a8c0 frontiernet net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > I have to say I partly agree with both Chris and Rod !
> >
> > I like simplicity - as far as the fact that I can see the smoked diode
on
> > the control board, or the burned wire or relay contacts, or corroded
pins in
> > the connectors - and I can probably hack together a repair - to get by
in an
> > emergency.
> >
> > It is hard to see inside the sealed Alltrax controller, if something
goes
> > wrong.
> >
> > I have been an electronics tech for over 20 years, designed circuit
boards,
> > and programmed a few microcontrollers to control some low power motors,
etc.
> > Short of using acid/dremel tool  to remove the potting compound, and
then
> > reverse-engineering the control circuit (and software) inside the
controller
> > (if the software is not code-protected to prevent reading it) - I would
be
> > as stuck as Chris said, if the controller failed.
> >
> > Having said that, I agree as much or more with Rod:  I am really tired
of
> > messing with all the corroded cicuit boards, contactors,  relays,
> > connectors, switches and wires between the 3 still-assembled tractors I
own.
> >
> > I dream of installing the Alltrax Controller - and having extreme
> > reliability - except for really simple maintenance like: lubrication,
tire
> > pressure, and battery water - for the next 10 years.
> >
> > I might keep the second E-20, in case I have that urge to kill the
weekend
> > cutting apart old contactors or relays, and swapping contacts, etc !
:>)
> >
> > Mostly, this past winter, I just wanted to snowblow my driveway (my
shoulder
> > still hurts from all the shoveling).
> > It was usually too miserable outside to want to troubleshoot all the
> > possible problems with all the 30 year old parts.
> > I know it was most likely only 1 single dead part - that cost less than
$5
> > to replace (or I probably even had a spare !).
> > The question was always - WHICH part is bad this time?
> > I guess I could go out and buy all new contactors, relays, wire,
connectors
> > & pins, and circuit boards and switches, etc.  I think the price of all
the
> > parts might be less than the Alltrax.
> > BUT, have any of you guys ever sat down and stripped ALL the wire, and
> > crimped all the pins & terminals (& usually soldered them also, to
reduce
> > corrosion), and fitted all the connectors to rebuild a wiring harness ?
> >
> > Something tells me I could install the Alltrax in a couple hours.
> > Rebuilding the original wiring harness could take days.
> > Then, connecting to all the various relays & contactors & etc takes a
bit
> > more time . . .
> > Does Bill Gunn sell the wiring harnesses?
> >
> > Anyone besides Steve Richardson complete the conversion to AllTrax
> > controller yet?
> > Anyone convert an E-20?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Zach" <czach computer org>
> > To: "Rod Hower" <rodhower ameritech net>
> > Cc: "Elec-trak list" <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 10:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: (ET) ET new technology and abandening the ICE
> >
> >
> >
> >>Mmm... I'm over 30 years old. And still going pretty well.
> >>
> >>I'm not going to blast the Alltrax controller; it's probably a great
> >>product. I just don't see the reasoning behind going with a more 
> >>complex
> >>solution when a simpler one can do the job.
> >>
> >>Then again my 68 911L Porsche has carburators. Which do require a 
> >>little
> >>bit of work to keep running, happy, drop of oil, etc. But I will say
> >>this: When I was on the highway and my accel cable broke I simply 
> >>turned
> >>the idle screws up to 4,000 RPM and drove the car home.
> >>
> >>When my 95 Dodge Caravan with it's computer controlled 3.0L engine
> >>decided it didn't want to run anymore I was dead as a doornail. There 
> >>is
> >>no way you can bypass the MPS, or work around a shot computer. You're
> >>stuck on the side of the road.
> >>
> >>Yes, carbs have their downside (less efficient, more pollution) but the
> >>computer that they rely on is in your noggin. Same for the E20. When it
> >>comes to technology I like my products to be as dumb as a box of
hammers.
> >>
> >>Simpler to fix in a pinch. Like when it's snowing.
> >>
> >>Chris
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Rod Hower wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Chris,
> >>>The GE control is over 30 years old.
> >>>Well designed but not the best upgrade for
> >>>this machine.  I think the Alltrax control offers
> >>>simplicity and better operation for people that
> >>>can't deal with failing relays and SCR's that
> >>>are over 30 years old. I'll admitt that my mower
> >>>solution is not for everybody, in fact it's probably
> >>>only for me since I have access to free parts to
> >>>perform this operation.  However, the Alltrax control
> >>>offers many users a simple and effective replacement
> >>>for
> >>>an antiquated control.
> >>>Rod.
> >>>--- Chris Zach <czach computer org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>You need an Alltrax control!
> >>>>
> >>>>I need an Alltrax controller like I need a hole in
> >>>>my head.
> >>>>
> >>>>Seriously: The Elec-Trak controller is the model of
> >>>>simplicity and
> >>>>logic. I have seven speeds times four gears; that's
> >>>>enough to get me the
> >>>>speed control I need. I have regen and braking for
> >>>>excellent overall
> >>>>speed control. And I have a little circuit that
> >>>>measures the armature
> >>>>current and shuts down the field weakening circuit
> >>>>automagically when I
> >>>>overload the motor.
> >>>>
> >>>>And cruise control with a little light. What more
> >>>>can I need?
> >>>>
> >>>>This is not a car, where you want a wide amount of
> >>>>speed settings. I
> >>>>have 28 possibilties between 0 and 7 miles per hour.
> >>>>That's not bad. And
> >>>>besides, I usually use this thing for constant speed
> >>>>applications like
> >>>>mowing the lawn or blowing snow. Having a controller
> >>>>that never gives me
> >>>>the same speed twice would be annoying.
> >>>>
> >>>>There might be a point in the fact the the E15's
> >>>>controller is a lot
> >>>>more parsnickety. This appears to be the case; it's
> >>>>logic board tries to
> >>>>do a lot of things that the inherent nature of
> >>>>having contactors does
> >>>>for the E-20 (there are no timing circuits on the
> >>>>E20 for example; the
> >>>>contactors provide the time for you). And the E20
> >>>>reverses the motor the
> >>>>*right* way: By reversing the armature with
> >>>>contactors as opposed to the
> >>>>field with relay points. The E15 was a cheaper
> >>>>design, but one can fix
> >>>>that too with simple discrete components.
> >>>>
> >>>>So for $5.00 for four diodes from Radio Shack my
> >>>>controller is fixed.
> >>>>And will probably last for another 30 years. At
> >>>>which time I'll simply
> >>>>replace the components again instead of scratching
> >>>>my head looking at a
> >>>>solid-state thingie. I'm sure Radio space shack will
> >>>>sell diodes in 2034.
> >>>>
> >>>>Probably the only remaining weak link is the relays.
> >>>>And to be honest
> >>>>when they die I could just build a 36 volt to 24
> >>>>volt power controller
> >>>>for $5.00 and replace the relays with modern 24 volt
> >>>>ones. Sealed too.
> >>>>$25.00 and that's all done for the next 30 years.
> >>>>
> >>>>There's a place for everything. A contactor
> >>>>controller doesn't really
> >>>>belong on a car (like the Renault electrics) and a
> >>>>digital control
> >>>>doesn't really belong on a lawn tractor.
> >>>>
> >>>>As for using the tractor: My E20 is my main mowing
> >>>>and plowing machine.
> >>>>The simpler the better. BLDC mower motors are nice,
> >>>>but it adds
> >>>>complexity when the omputer blows out.
> >>>>
> >>>>Chris Zach
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Rod Hower wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I plan on ordering one tomorrow.
> >>>>>I know there are diehards on the list that prefer
> >>>>>to keep original equipment, but I will upgrade
> >>>>
> >>>>mine
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>to the latest technology.  Like others on the list
> >>>>>I plan on using this tractor as a practical
> >>>>
> >>>>machine
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>and don't care much about keeping it original.
> >>>>>I would have converted an ICE machine to electric,
> >>>>>but it's much easier to get an Elec Trak going,
> >>>>
> >>>>even
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>if it is 30+ years old.  My mower deck will use 3
> >>>>
> >>>>BLDC
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>motors from work with lots of 'engineering' to
> >>>>
> >>>>connect
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>the mower blade.  I would have used the original
> >>>>
> >>>>PMDC
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>mower motors, but the blade and mounting hardware
> >>>>
> >>>>were
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>in very bad shape and required me to dismember the
> >>>>>parts.
> >>>>>I'll post pictures when the job is finished.
> >>>>>Lots of work, but worth the effort since I don't
> >>>>
> >>>>have
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>to listen to the gas engine.
> >>>>>Rod
> >>>>>--- Chris Zach <czach computer org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Ok, the breadboard is fixed. Basically what I did
> >>>>>>was replace all four
> >>>>>>of the diodes with good old fashioned 3amp diodes
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>from Radio Shack. The
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>larger diodes have a forward voltage drop of .5
> >>>>>>volts as opposed to 1.0
> >>>>>>volts for the smaller ones. So I took a drill,
> >>>>>>enlarged the holes in the
> >>>>>>PCB slightly, and soldered in the new diodes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Put it back in; works like a champ. As a bonus,
> >>>>>>speeds 6 and 7 now come
> >>>>>>online. Now if I could just get a voltmeter that
> >>>>>>*works* and a bulb for
> >>>>>>the cruise control switch I would be 100% set for
> >>>>>>the summer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Meantime I will put in an order for 22 ohm
> >>>>
> >>>>resistors
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>and the other
> >>>>>>oddball types and replace everything in the fall.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>>>>>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>>>>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Elec-trak mailing list
> >>Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >>https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elec-trak mailing list
> > Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> > https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >
> >
> > End of Elec-trak Digest, Vol 2, Issue 136
> > *****************************************
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elec-trak mailing list
> > Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> > https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> >
> >
>
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