Re: (ET) Interesting.....

[Chris Zach <cz alembic crystel com>]

And after a hard night's rain I finished swapping in the new right side 
contactor pair. Tightened all the bolts, turned on the disconnect and 
key, and gave it a try.

Tractor goes into speed 1 forward and reverse and back to speed 0 with 
no problem. Likewise going to speed 4 backwards and 5-8 forward also 
seem to be working fine. I need to check out the contactor on speed 3 
and fix the cruise control circuits, but that's another set of issues.

So it looks like the main problem was that the contactors had coils that 
were shorting to ground somewhat. That's enough to screw up the speeds; 
I think it was the bottom contactors from each side; maybe that's due to 
water getting in them or something, I don't know.

For now I think things are working-ish again. Time to clean up some of 
the other problems and get the E20 ready for a potentially snowy winter...

C


On 11/1/2018 5:23 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
> So this evening I took a look at things again. As I said, the tractor 
> runs in reverse and stops (good) but runs on in forward now (an 
> improvement but....)
>
> Time to find the problem. The fact that reverse was fixed by replacing 
> one of the contactors is a clue, I'll focus on 1F/2F and see the 
> signals. So I started with 14-01. I disconnected it, and sure enough 
> tractor doesn't start. Fine. Then I disconnected 11...
>
> Tractor starts in forward. Impossible, checked the voltage at 14-01. 
> It's 6-8 volts, low but enough to keep the contactors in. Checked with 
> 14-01 disconnected from the contactor and it's zero.
>
> Ah hah....
>
> The problem I think is that there is a ground fault in the contactor to 
> frame ground. I have a dirty secret: My E20 does have a ground fault 
> somewhere in it, I think it's in the motor itself. But what I think is 
> happening is that when the tractor motor starts a voltage differential 
> is there between the contactor and the ground fault in the contactor. I 
> checked the resistance on 1F's pins to frame ground and they're 
> infinite. 2F's is 50 ohms and about 170 or so ohms.
>
> So what I think has been happening is that over the years the coils have 
> developed a leak to frame. And the ground fault in my tractor is 
> allowing enough voltage to go around the spinning motor to effectively 
> apply a bias voltage. Not enough to close the contactor, but enough to 
> keep it closed-ish as long as the motor does not spin too fast. This 
> also is why the contactor will drop out when I am in speed 5-8 as the 
> higher speed on the motor means less of a voltage diff when it spins down.
>
> Weird, but I think this might be it. Tomorrow I'll dig out the 1R/2F, 
> remember I had a similar fault on 2R earlier and swapping out the 
> contactors fixed reverse. Now to fix forward....
>
> I also bought a ton of parts today to fix the other annoying stuff: The 
> PTO plug is old and burning the wires with the snowblower from heat, I'm 
> switching that out. The timer has a strippedish gear on the charger. 
> Replacing card 4 again so the high current drop out of FW will work 
> again. Replacing the broken seat switch (again). And switching out the 
> 1A contactor which I think is stuck in an on position.
>
> General housecleaning. I think I last overhauled this stuff 15 years 
> ago, so it's probably about time given the use I make of this thing...
>
> Never dull.
>
> On 11/1/2018 2:46 PM, jlantonucci comcast net wrote:
> > Jim Coate at Electric Tractor sells a almost complete conversion kit. 
> > Most of the work is done for you.
> >
> > /Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device/
> >
> > ------ Original message------
> > *From: *Dean Stuckmann via Elec-trak
> > *Date: *Thu, Nov 1, 2018 1:40 PM
> > *To: *Chris Zach;
> > *Cc: *Hank Ralston;Elec-trak list;
> > *Subject:*Re: (ET) Interesting.....
> >
> > By the time I was done, I think I had about $600 into it. That 
> > included controller, throttle pot, new main contactor, fuse, and some 
> > other items I needed to utilize the E-16 hand control in a normal 
> > method. Not cheap but I ended up with a “new” tractor.
> >
> > However, if I recall correctly, the Altrax unit is no longer 
> > available. That being said there still may be some out there. Also, I 
> > know that there are other ET users out there that have done 
> > conversions with Curtis controllers too. Maybe they can chime in. 
> > Found this plug-and-play kit here - 
> > http://freerangeelectric.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_8_19&products_id=41 
> >
> >
> > Again, not cheap but it looks like all the guesswork has been taken out.
> >
> > Dean
> >
> > > On Nov 1, 2018, at 11:58 AM, Hank Ralston <Hank RalstonAgency com 
> > > <mailto:Hank RalstonAgency com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think they are about $400++ from what I've seen.  Do you have a 
> > > model #and suggested distributor to go to?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Hank
> > > Ralston Agency, Inc.
> > > Office: (585) 697-0880 <tel:(585) 697-0880>
> > > Web: http://www.ralstonagency.com
> > > "NAVIGATING YOUR INSURANCE NEEDS"
> > > Proud Member of Rochester Rotary since 2001
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dean Stuckmann [mailto:dstuckmann icloud com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 10:47 AM
> > > To: Chris Zach <cz alembic crystel com <mailto:cz alembic crystel com>>
> > > Cc: Elec-trak list <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu 
> > > <mailto:elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>>; Hank Ralston 
> > > <Hank RalstonAgency com <mailto:Hank RalstonAgency com>>
> > > Subject: Re: (ET) Interesting.....
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > When I started seeing some gremlins on my E16, I decided to tear out 
> > > the old and replace it with an Altrax. Best move I made.
> > >
> > > The old tech is just going to get older. Old spare parts from a donor 
> > > tractor may not be in any better condition than the part you want to 
> > > replace. And replacing everything with new parts is not exactly cheap 
> > > either. Not to mention the pain and suffering. (Oh, I guess I 
> > > mentioned it!) I would try getting my hands on a solid state 
> > > controller if you can.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Dean A. Stuckmann
> > > 5432 County Road U
> > > Newton, WI 53063
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Nov 1, 2018, at 9:14 AM, Hank Ralston <Hank RalstonAgency com 
> > > > <mailto:Hank RalstonAgency com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I found that the switches had gotten a fraction shorter from decades 
> > > > of ware so I took the throttle switch out and replaced all of the 
> > > > the micro switches.   Be sure to test each in all 10 positions since 
> > > > there is just a little slop.
> > > > 5 years later I'm down to figuring out why it doesn't get past 3rd 
> > > > or 4th, but occasionally does after 30-45 minutes of constant run.
> > > >
> > > > Also Guessing either censor connected to the motor, connections to 
> > > > the main board ( only 2 year old) throttle switches alignment or one 
> > > > of the relays.  Just have to get the shop Manual  out and "shoot" a 
> > > > weekend trouble shooting the problem. Luckily I may have enough 
> > > > donated spare parts.  I think the major design flaw is the method 
> > > > they used to connect the leads to the board. For the old board I 
> > > > drilled holes at each tab and soldered a harness to it.   Problem 
> > > > was closing the compartment making sure nothing was hitting bumping 
> > > > into the extra wiring.
> > > > Just too tight in the top compartment in general. Even with new 
> > > > contacts on the new board with hours of adjustment for a nice snug 
> > > > fit for each.
> > > >
> > > > Bottom line, the care of these machines is a hobby onto themselves. 
> > > >  Got to love the final little successes that make you feel that they 
> > > > out way the hours head scratching & pinched fingers, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Hank
> > > > Office (585) 697-0880 <tel:(585) 697-0880>
> > > > www.RalstonAgency.com <http://www.RalstonAgency.com>
> > > >
> > > > > On Oct 31, 2018, at 10:46 PM, Chris Zach <cz alembic crystel com 
> > > > > <mailto:cz alembic crystel com>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm getting there. I might order another set of 36 volt relays to 
> > > > > refresh my current set, and I'll re-lubricate the switch box 
> > > > > tomorrow and see what's going on.
> > > > >
> > > > > No rest for the weary....
> > > > >
> > > > > C
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 10/31/2018 7:23 PM, jlantonucci comcast net 
> > > > > > <mailto:jlantonucci comcast net> wrote:
> > > > > > Chris,
> > > > > > I've found it best practice replace the relays and contactors, 
> > > > > > clean every single connection, etc.  You need to know what is 
> > > > > > good.  Otherwise you can drive yourself crazy chasing electrical 
> > > > > > gremlins.
> > > > > > /Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device/
> > > > > > ------ Original message------
> > > > > > *From: *Chris Zach
> > > > > > *Date: *Wed, Oct 31, 2018 6:28 PM
> > > > > > *To: *Elec-trak list;
> > > > > > *Cc: *
> > > > > > *Subject:*(ET) Interesting.....
> > > > > > Well, with the left contactors replaced it might be better, not 
> > > > > > sure.Question: Does someone have a pic of the wiring on the 
> > > > > > contactors? In the manual it says that 1F has 11-00,11-01,and 
> > > > > > 23-00 going to the coil. I only have two wires going to that coil 
> > > > > > (11-00,11-01).Also now the tractor only goes speed 1 in reverse. 
> > > > > > Oi, this may be endless 
> > > > > > repairs...C_______________________________________________Elec-trak mailinglistElec-trak cosmos phy.tufts.eduhtt 
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