Re: (ET) New Electrics

["Max Hall" <maxo iname com>]

> I'm disappointed to see that many members of this list have taken the
> anti-EV public relations drivel.

I don't think you know the readership of the list very well yet.

> But that's only part of the story. Toyota and some of the other car
> companies dropped their EV programs not for technical limitations,
> economics, or lack of market, but because for some reason they
> want the electric products to go away.

What reason, or reasons, might there be? I think it's as simple as you 
don't
want it to be. Technical limitations can be overcome when needed. Economics
(superset that includes lack of market) is the whole deal. Gasoline is
cheaper now than the spike of 1979 by a factor of more than TWO. Car
companies can only influence taste and demand so much, and not for lack of
trying. There's no bogeyman. Industry follows the money, and there isn't 
any
in EVs until gas costs more than approximately nothing.

Consumers are rational in their simple calcualations. Bang done. Ask Occam.

-Maxo





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Korthof" <wkorthof earthlink net>
To: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <roden ald net>; "Elec-Trak"
<elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: (ET) New Electrics


> The wait list for the Toyota RAV4 EV was several months for those of us
> lucky enough to buy one. Toyota started the program basically in May
> and basically closed it in November. They had around 300 vehicles and
> originally planned to market them over a 2 year period, but as the supply
> only lasted 6 months. Afterward, the story was re-spun to fit a certain
> message, but it remains a fact that demand far exceeded Toyota's
> expectations.
>
> A few other points... during the 6 months of consumer RAV4 availability,
> Toyota refused to offer it to any fleets, causing frustration to their
earlier
> large customers (including Southern California Edison, which by it self
> consumed around 500 RAV4 EVs during the early/test/"fleet trial" years).
>
> Most of the retail sales happened through just 2 dealers that each had
> exactly 1 EV sales person who happened to be motivated. Interesting.
> In both of those dealers, the Prius and RAVEV sales rates were at a
> comparable volume (Prius was maybe 10% and 40% higher). Note that
> the RAV4 EV cost more than TWICE as much as the Prius, not to
> mention the required garage installation of an inductive home charger at
> a cost of typically $1,000.
>
> Were the RAV4EV offered nationwide, instead of at a handful of dealers,
> and were the marketing open to all paying customers, it easily would
> have sold in the thousands during the first year. An annual demand in
> the tens of thousands could have been reached without much difficulty.
>
> I'm disappointed to see that many members of this list have taken the
> anti-EV public relations drivel.
>
> The RAV4 EV is an excellent vehicle; mine already has 40,000 miles
> in just 18 months---with NO maintenance other than tire puncture fixes.
>
> Not everyone appreciates the features of electric power, but many
> people do, and there is a market. Yes, low volume production is costly
> expensive, and yes components in a good EV might be expensive.
>
> But that's only part of the story. Toyota and some of the other car
> companies dropped their EV programs not for technical limitations,
> economics, or lack of market, but because for some reason they
> want the electric products to go away.
>
>
> /wk
>
> At 01:01 AM 2/21/04 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> >On 20 Feb 2004 at 20:10, Dave Fancher wrote:
> >
> > > When they build EV's that looked and
> > > performed like modern cars they started to succeed i.e. -- the six
> > > month plus wait list for a Toyota. Honda is taking the same approach.
> >
> >But - forgive me for popping this balloon in your bundle - these are not
> >EVs.
> >They are gasoline-powered cars that happen to use electricity for some
> >part of
> >the drive system - for energy recovery during braking and/or as an
electric
> >supercharger.
> >
> >As their ads point out, you never (have to) plug them in.  All the 
> >energy
> >comes from gasoline.  They are not EVs.  They are not even really
hybrids,
> >though they call themselves that.
> >
> >The reason they've succeeded is just as you say: they "perform like
modern
> >cars."  At the user level, they work almost exactly like the gas cars
that
> >consumers are familiar with, including (and particularly) the fuel they
use.
> >Even better, they use less of that fuel.  For Jane Doe, what's not to
like?
> >
> >
> >David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> >1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> >1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> >1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> >1974 Avco New Idea 36vdc
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity.  It
> >eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
> >business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation.
> >
> >                                -- Johnny Hart
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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> >Elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu
> >https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
>
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