Re: (ET) gm car

["Pieter Litchfield" <plitch attglobal net>]

Well Larry (and others):

I don't think we're too off topic - when asked why the ET was not more
successful, I suggest two possibilities:
(1)  The lawn care products dealers that sold the ET didn't know how to
support an all electric vehicle, and  therefore were reluctant to sell it,
or
(2)  The golf cart folk who could service it didn't sell to the general
public and didn't want to sell it either.

How a thing is sold and supported is as much a factor in marketplace 
success
as cost and technology.  I think that's true of the ET and the EV.
"Traditional" car dealers may have a big infrastructure-type problem with
EVs in terms of testing and repair equipment as well as employee training.
The point being that the ET and GM's EV may, in fact, have suffered from a
shared marketplace issue.  That's relevant to ETs, I think.

The cost question was a related curiosity of mine.  But is a question about
the relative costs of an ET and a John Deere not relevant to an ET forum?
I'd think the charter would have to be very narrow to say that's "off
topic."

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elie, Larry (L.D.)" <lelie FORD COM>
To: "'Pieter Litchfield'" <plitch attglobal net>; "Discussion List Electrac
tractor" <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: (ET) gm car


> We are off topic, and I want the thread to end, but...
>
> GM lost money on the EV1; but they knew that from the start.  We lost
money on the Electric Ranger, the EcoVan, and so on.  We dropped the Think!
Electric for the same reason.  The Think! was as close to an ET as you are
going to get.  Honda and Toyota lose money on each electric they ship.  The
real problem is that even your ET pack only carries around the energy
content of perhaps 10 lbs. of gasoline, and it weighs many times as much.  
I
know all the 'make the vehicle lighter/efficient' arguments.  Yes, you can,
but if you applied them to an IC engine, it would still be lighter.  I 
don't
want to be a naysayer, but hybreds from any manufacturer won't make money 
in
years, and I DO have access to the data, I know the people in the planning
for the Escape Hybrid.  We won't make money for years.  Even for a proven
technology it takes 6 to 8 years to pay for tooling a plant that is selling
well.  These vehicles are exercises because no one wants to be caught
flat-footed.  I saw !
> this decades ago with gas-turbine engines.  They were easier to carry to
production, but when racing essentially 'banned' them, a product that would
have gone to the performance models first, the idea died.
>
> H2 economy?  DC and us have very tight agreements with Ballard (probably 
> a
mistake...) while GM has been using Delphi.  These things don't scale well
and aren't close to being cheap enough to buy.  If H2 economy happens this
decade it will be in an H2 IC engine.  Even I am working on such a project.
That one is 'cheap', but LP is cheap, relatively clean and never made a 
dent
in sales (except in Alberta, where it's subsidized).  Economic decisions 
are
made in Wall Street.
>
> Sorry Peter, our best studies are not published.  But you are right, it
isn't a conspiracy.
>
> Larry Elie
> Physicist
> Ford Research
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pieter Litchfield [mailto:plitch attglobal net]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 7:12 AM
> To: Discussion List Electrac tractor
> Subject: Re: (ET) gm car
>
>
> Well don't condemn GM too soon.  There isn't any infrastructure out 
> there,
> little public acceptance (except here).  I think they were leased because
GM
> didn't want to have owners "stranded" down the road, giving the 
> perception
> that GM was acting unethically by selling a product that it wouldn't
> support.  At least with all the leased vehicles off the road, we can't 
> say
> GM unfairly abandoned us.
>
> For the moment, it appears that hybrids are gaining acceptance.
>
> Does anyone know of a study that attempts to quantify all the costs of
> building and operating a vehicle?  Manufacturing, raw materials, fuel,
fuel
> transpiration,disposal, etc?  I love my ET, but I'm not convinced when 
> all
> is taken into account that it is an economic choice.  For example, while
the
> vehicle itself is "clean", the power plant that made the Kws to charge it
is
> not.  But it can be or a cost.  IInterestingly, the pollution from the
> mid-west falls where I live, so my advocating for more electric vehicles
> could have a real personal "cost" to me.  Anyway, that Kw must be
> transported on the grid with losses, transformed (producing heat) to
charge
> the battery, and stored in a medium that produces a chemical reaction
> resulting in a bit of gas discharge. In addition, the batteries contain
lead
> which has a disposal cost encountered every few years.  And we have 
> barely
> scratched the surface of costs. So what are the "true" costs of producing
> and using an ET (or any EV) compared to, say, a John Deere of comparable
HP?
> No taking sides, just curious.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Korthof" <wkorthof earthlink net>
> To: "Neil Dennis" <wombat dssinternet net>; "Elec-trak"
> <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: (ET) gm car
>
>
> > Yeah, by hook and by crook GM is yanking away
> > each of the EV1 electric cars from the "owners"
> > as quickly as they legally can. It's a shame GM
> > stopped EV1 production (a long time ago!). But
> > it's also disappointing that they refused to allow
> > anyone to buy an EV1 (lease only!) for _any_
> > price from the start to the end. Many thousands
> > of EV1 wannabe "wait list" EV customer were
> > turned away as well, and now every single EV1
> > ---1000+ or so---is being taken off the road.
> >
> > Boy am I glad GM is so enthusiastic about
> > building technology for the future. not.
> >
> > /wk
> >
> > At 06:59 PM 3/11/03 -0500, Neil Dennis wrote:
> > >An announcment in the news tonight, GM is recalling their electric car
> > >and going out of the business.
> > >
> > >Kinda a downer {)-{
> > >
> > >wombat
> >