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Re: (ET) E12S and a curtis controller??



Wow.  I am really pleased with the discussion that spun off my email.

David Roden is pretty accurate in what he says about Mark Hanson's modifications. I should know because I own one of the two E-15s Mark modified. And I did my graduate studies in DC-DC power conversion and motor control. Mark did use two identical controllers, one for the drive and one for the PTO. The battery pack is 48V and the accessories are tapped off the pack. I can put the tractor in any gear, vary the speed command so that any voltage from 0 to 48V is applied, and it is efficient and smooth. I never need to change gears while I mow. I can throttle down and switch to reverse in a blink, even if the tractor is not quite at rest. I never use the foot brake while mowing since the reverse is so handy. But my top speed is 4 mph whereas before the modifications it would have been 10 mph. I don't really NEED the speed for mowing and snow-plowing. I just want it for the fun of giving my daughter faster rides.

David did say that he would trust that since Mark put a second controller on the PTO that it must indicate that running the mower deck at 48V is too risky to attempt. In fact, Mark told me just the opposite. The mower motors can be run at higher voltage with little or no risk. I generally run them at 36V but crank them up when the grass gets very thick. I have run them that way for over a year and never tripped the thermal overload or gotten the motors hot enough that I couldn't hold my hand on any one of them indefinitely. This E-15 is a great ride and I only look forward to it getting better if this kit Steve's company is developing can be made affordable.

One more feature I would like to see on a controller for the ET is cruise control. The ability to set a cruise speed and then reduce speed (or even reverse direction) for maneuvering around obstacles and then resume the preset speed would be very useful to me. Currently, I can set a speed but cannot resume it after changing speed. The speed command input to the controller is a slider potentiometer next to the forward/reverse switch (rather than a foot pedal). I am not sure that a foot pedal is compatible with implementing a cruise control cost effectively. What do you think, Steve? Is cruise control a possibility?

Andy

PS - I will never go back to a 36V battery pack.


On Saturday, June 28, 2003, at 05:23  PM, Steve Richardson wrote:

David you make some really good points. My ET pours out the heat when it's running along, mabey mine just has a problem ! As I understand the "Theory discussion" I had with Damon the controller will weaken the field with a
light load and pedal-to-the-metal.  If the load increases then the
controller will increase the field current to compensate. This is really more to protest the armature than to control speed. If the field is too
weak with a given load then the armature current may rise to high.

We have no experience with the GE ET. But it's still just a sep-x motor.. The controller is really being designed for Golf Cars, which have larger motors and higher currents than the ET's. So the controller will actually
be little more than is required for the ET motor.

I look forward to testing in my ET with the new controller.

I appreciate all this input.  It helps us make a better product..

Thanks David and all..


--- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <roden ald net>
To: <elec-trak cosmos phy tufts edu>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: (ET) E12S and a curtis controller??


On 27 Jun 2003 at 17:51, Steve Richardson wrote:

The Alltrax controller automatically adjust the field strength to keep
it
within a percentage of the of the armature current.

I take it that means it will ^not^ perform field weakening based on pedal
position. Too bad. Our GE motor was designed to use field weakening
(though
obviously it doesn't require it). I'd like to retain FW on mine. Others
may
feel differently, of course.


We believe the tractors will probably see an increase in top ground
speed
because of the efficiency of the controller over the GE control
system.

With the GE, top speed (before field weakening) is with the battery
connected directly to the motor.  I don't see how you can get any more
efficient than that! Semiconductors always have a forward voltage drop. Unless you have a bypass contactor, I think you'll find your non-FW top
speed is slightly ^lower^ than the original speed (assuming 36 volts).
Not
that it would be a big deal.


 Another option, one I'm going to try, is use a 48v battery pack ...

Mark Hanson did that with his homebrew ET controller. He just dropped in
some 8 volt golf car batteries.  He didn't use FW either, and said the
higher voltage just about made up for the loss of top speed.

There are some problems with using 8v batteries though.

First, you'd probably need some way to derive 36 volts for the mower deck and other accessories. Mark built a separate controller just for that purpose. He's a pretty smart engineer, so if he felt it was necessary I'm
not about to try running my mower deck on 48 bolts.

Second, you'd also need a DC:DC to run the lights -- 8v is too low, 16v is too high. So figure more $$$ for that, though it's a good idea anyway.
You
might be able to get away with just a simple regulator circuit (unless
you're worried about wasting the energy as heat).

Third, you'd need a different charger. Again perhaps a good thing as the
original is kind of brutish -- but I suspect few users will be very
interested in this kind of investment.

I'm sure the lift will work fine on 16 volts, so no problem there.

An alternative to the 8v golf car batteries is to use four smaller 12
marine
batteries instead of 6 golf car batteries.  Then you could retain pack
tapping (but still need a new charger). Downside is that you'd lose cycle
life with those batteries.  Range also might then become a problem,
depending on the user's needs.

Maybe you could configure the controller as a buck/boost type. Then the
user could use 36 volts input, and get 0 to 48 volts at the motor.  I
don't
know how much this might add to the cost.


The field weakening
method used on the Elec-Trac's is to insert resistance in series with
the
field winding which turns a lot of energy into heat. A modern controller
uses
PWM to create varying voltages for the field, creating very little heat.

The field current is fairly low, so IMO the amount of loss from the ET's resistive field control is trivial. The loss from the resistive armature
control is much, much more significant.

But even at that, I hear relatively few complaints about limited range or
inefficiency on this list.  I may be mistaken, but I think most
experienced
ET users know enough to pick a gear that allows them to run the tractor
most
of the time with the armature resistors out of the circuit.

The main reason I want a "real" controller is to get fine control without having to shift into LL. Range isn't an issue for me. The stock ET has plenty of range for my needs, even with lower battery capacity than was
standard.  I currently use East Penn 8G24 group 24 gel batteries (6 in
series-parallel), and I've never come close to running them flat. But,
again, others might benefit from increased range.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea 36vdc
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