Rob;

If you stay with Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry, fires shouldn't be an issue.
There are a lot of different Lithium chemistries. Doesn't have the largest energy density or power, but at present one of the safest. Only downside is cost.
100Ahr to 180 Ahr CALB cells would be a good choice. They are 3.2 volts each, so you will need 12, for an equivalent 36 volt pack.

Dennis
Elsberry, MO
From: Rob Brockway via Elec-trak <elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2021 3:01 PM
To: John Hosken (USA) <john.hosken@usa.net>
Cc: elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu <elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>
Subject: Re: (ET) E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit
 
Some thoughts on batteries.

Sam’s club has Duracell  gc2 for $89 plus core charge.  A little higher at Batteries plus bulbs.

I have been watching lithium batteries on Ebay and Amazon.  The two things I keep watching other than price:

1. Do they have the battery management set up to allow for 200-300 amps for short periods.  The cheaper units have low maximum amps.   I don’t think 100 amps would work for anyone with hilly terrain.

2. Safety.  I worry about the safety of lithium and the potential for fire.

Does anyone have any thoughts about these factors?

Rob
Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 9, 2021, at 12:40 AM, John Hosken (USA) <john.hosken@usa.net> wrote:
> Thank you all for the thoughtful and detailed responses. Now I have a lot of
> studying to do.
> I even got a phone call from Travis who suggested I take a step back and
> re-examine my initial assumptions. I do this on every project at work, so it
> was easy. Since the batteries in the tractor were "previously frozen" when I
> first got it, they probably did not give the original controller a good
> test. He recommended installing new batteries and trying to resurrect the
> original setup. Which leads me to my next question: I switched to AGM
> batteries (and will never go back) for everything sometime between going to
> CFL's (1990?) and then replacing them all with LED's (2010). Unfortunately,
> lead is going up in price faster than lithium is going down. My local
> lead-acid store says the cheapest flooded are $125 * 6 = $750. AGM's are up
> to $275 * 6 = $1650. Somebody in Chattanooga is selling 12.8v 100ah
> Group-31-size LiFePO4's on ebay for $283 * 3 = $850 when you buy three at
> once. How could that be? I assume 100ah will mow a pretty big lawn. None of
> the lithium battery posts I have seen mentioned the ah rating of the
> batteries they used. Battman says his E-20 uses about 1ah/minute. Has anyone
> tried this?
> John    
> P.S: IMO a tested kit that saves time is usually worth the money.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elec-trak-request@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
> <elec-trak-request@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>
> Sent: Friday, November 5, 2021 10:43 PM
> To: elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
> Subject: Elec-trak Digest, Vol 19, Issue 104
>
> Send Elec-trak mailing list submissions to
>    elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>    https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>    elec-trak-request@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>    elec-trak-owner@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of Elec-trak digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re:  Elec-trak Digest, Vol 19, Issue 103 (Robert Troll)
>   2. Re:  E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit (Chad Bush)
>   3. Re:  E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit (EVDL Administrator)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 00:38:11 +0000
> From: Robert Troll <roberttroll@hotmail.com>
> To: "elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu" <elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>
> Subject: Re: (ET) Elec-trak Digest, Vol 19, Issue 103
> Message-ID:
>   
> <MN2PR16MB3135D344280E02C663472FCEBA8F9@MN2PR16MB3135.namprd16.prod.outlook.
> com>
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have also done several Curtis conversations.  Pretty easy if you don't
> want field weakening.  Little harder if you do. A 4qd should work just fine
> as well.
>
> Powered by Cricket Wireless
> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ________________________________
> From: elec-trak-request@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
> <elec-trak-request@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>
> Sent: Friday, November 5, 2021 8:35:03 PM
> To: elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu <elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>
> Subject: Elec-trak Digest, Vol 19, Issue 103
>
> Send Elec-trak mailing list submissions to
>        elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        elec-trak-request@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        elec-trak-owner@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of Elec-trak digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1.  Front tires / rims (Paul Anderegg)
>   2.  E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit (John Hosken (USA))
>   3. Re:  E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit (David Roden)
>   4. Re:  E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit (jlantonucci)
>   5. Re:  E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit (Steve Gaarder)
>   6. Re:  E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit (Rob Brockway)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 11:14:18 -0500
> From: Paul Anderegg <tpa2008@gmail.com>
> To: elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
> Subject: (ET) Front tires / rims
> Message-ID:
>        <CAC=CQ4eFs6+P14QrAG=ixpNzvTR7aFF3pwth-wPunYFqPozjkA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone have or know any leads for the wide front tires and rims?
> Please contact me offline if you have any information.
>
> T. Paul
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 13:01:36 -0400
> From: "John Hosken \(USA\)" <john.hosken@usa.net>
> To: <elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>
> Subject: (ET) E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit
> Message-ID: <000a01d7d266$cb4d31d0$61e79570$@usa.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Greetings Trakkers,
>
> After fifteen years, my E-20 floated to the top of the list. Varmints ate
> the wiring before I got it. The batteries were used as cores for another
> project. A box of NOS parts got stashed ten years ago.
>
> I am starting to research possibilities, but leads so far have been dead
> ends. https://freerangeelectric.com/ doesn't answer their phone or email.
> Clean Power Supply doesn't sell kits. Another email I found on the forum is
> unreachable. A local Elec-Trak expert recommended by my favorite Cub Cadet
> person doesn't return calls. The Elec-Trak Owners Club stopped sending me
> birthday messages nine years ago. Most of the posts I read lately are
> ancient. AllTrax won't sell direct and sent me back to Electric Tractor
> Store. EV Album has a bunch of addresses I haven't tried yet, though.
>
> Help!
>
> John
>
> Eight five seven - two three four - five seven eight nine
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:01:20 -0400
> From: "David Roden" <etpost@drmm.net>
> To: <elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>, "John Hosken \UUSA\""
>        <john.hosken@usa.net>
> Subject: Re: (ET) E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit
> Message-ID: <61856360.20226.4D1B8356@etpost.drmm.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hi John,
>
> The Electric Tractor Store seems to be a very part-time activity for Jim.
> Keep trying and eventually he'll respond.  It may take days or weeks.
>
> Jim offers a GE controller.  IIRC it's a bit on the pricey side but looks to
> be a solid choice.  I don't know of anything other than Jim's package that's
> closer to being an actual ET controller kit.
>
> Other controllers will probably be cheaper, but will require some moderately
> significant electrical / electronic chops to adapt and install.
>
> Alltrax once made a controller designed for the ET.  It worked very well.
> They discontinued it in 2018 when they redesigned their controller range.
> They hadn't sold enough of the first model to make a new one worthwhile. If
> memory serves, the only reason that they ever made an ET model at all was
> that at the time they had an engineer on the staff who owned an ET.
>
> Several people here have used Curtis golf car controllers, apparently with
> success.  Some electrical design work is required.
>
> Probably an Alltrax could also be used.
>
> Any series motor controller is a bit iffy with an ET motor.  The ET motor
> inductance is lower than a series motor controller usually expects, so the
> controller's current limit may not be able to react fast enough.  If you use
> a series motor golf car controller I recommend getting the highest current
> capacity that you can afford.
>
> 4QD controllers from the UK are harder to come by than Curtis or even
> Alltrax, but I think might be a better choice.  they're meant for PM motors
> but should work fine on an ET sepex motor if you rig up field control.
> Some 4QD models have brake release outputs that can be used to operate a
> field relay.
>
> I may have a slightly used older 4QD with brake output for sale soon.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to the "etpost" address will not reach me.  To send me a
> private message, please use the address shown at the bottom of this page :
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:20:09 -0400
> From: jlantonucci <jlantonucci@comcast.net>
> To: elec-trak <elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>, "John Hosken (USA)"
>        <john.hosken@usa.net>
> Subject: Re: (ET) E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit
> Message-ID: <97cdca68-fc8b-4b8b-8ffd-731ca8ea564c@edison>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> I've restored an E-20 and added Alltrax.    I have the circuit diagrams.
> E-mail me off list.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On Nov 5, 2021 at 1:14 PM, John Hosken (USA)  <john.hosken@usa.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Greetings Trakkers,
>>
>> After fifteen years, my E-20 floated to the top of the list. Varmints
>> ate the wiring before I got it. The batteries were used as cores for
>> another project. A box of NOS parts got stashed ten years ago.
>>
>> I am starting to research possibilities, but leads so far have been
>> dead ends. https://freerangeelectric.com/ doesn't answer their phone or
> email.
>> Clean Power Supply doesn't sell kits. Another email I found on the
>> forum is unreachable. A local Elec-Trak expert recommended by my
>> favorite Cub Cadet person doesn't return calls. The Elec-Trak Owners
>> Club stopped sending me birthday messages nine years ago. Most of the
>> posts I read lately are ancient. AllTrax won't sell direct and sent me
>> back to Electric Tractor Store. EV Album has a bunch of addresses I
> haven't tried yet, though.
>>
>> Help!
>>
>> John
>>
>> Eight five seven - two three four - five seven eight nine
>>
>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
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>> <http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/attachments/20211105/de
>> f801e6/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________
>> Elec-trak mailing list
>> Elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>> https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 17:49:33 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Steve Gaarder <gaarder@ecovillage.ithaca.ny.us>
> To: "John Hosken (USA)" <john.hosken@usa.net>
> Cc: elec-trak <elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu>
> Subject: Re: (ET) E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit
> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2111051748160.14899@mailtoad.evi.earth>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
>
> And I have installed a 4QD in an E-15 and can help you if you choose that
> route.
>
> steve
>
> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021, jlantonucci wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I've restored an E-20 and added Alltrax.    I have the circuit diagrams.
> E-mail me off list.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 5, 2021 at 1:14 PM, John Hosken (USA)  <john.hosken@usa.net>
> wrote:
>>> Greetings Trakkers,
>>> After fifteen years, my E-20 floated to the top of the list. Varmints
>>> ate the wiring before I got it. The batteries were used as cores for
>>> another project. A box of NOS parts got stashed ten years ago.
>>> I am starting to research possibilities, but leads so far have been
>>> dead ends. https://freerangeelectric.com/ doesn't answer their phone or
> email.
>>> Clean Power Supply doesn't sell kits. Another email I found on the
>>> forum is unreachable. A local Elec-Trak expert recommended by my
>>> favorite Cub Cadet person doesn't return calls. The Elec-Trak Owners
>>> Club stopped sending me birthday messages nine years ago. Most of the
>>> posts I read lately are ancient. AllTrax won't sell direct and sent
>>> me back to Electric Tractor Store. EV Album has a bunch of addresses I
> haven't tried yet, though.
>>> Help!
>>> John
>>> Eight five seven - two three four - five seven eight nine
>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>> scrubbed...
>>> URL: 
>>> <http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/attachments/20211105/d
>>> ef801e6/attachment.htm>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elec-trak mailing list
>>> Elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>>> https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>>
>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/attachments/20211105/c3
>> 285e2f/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________
>> Elec-trak mailing list
>> Elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>> https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:34:49 -0400
> From: Rob Brockway <getractor@yahoo.com>
> To: noaddress@drmm.net
> Cc: elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu, john.hosken@usa.net
> Subject: Re: (ET) E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit
> Message-ID: <2271616A-2273-4999-9BFA-56FCCB29BD4D@yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Dave,
> Two questions on controllers.
>
> First how much braking can you get from regen on the 4q?  Is it good enough
> to not use the mechanical brake?
>
> Did the altrax have regen?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Nov 5, 2021, at 5:01 PM, David Roden <etpost@drmm.net> wrote:
>>
>> ?Hi John,
>>
>> The Electric Tractor Store seems to be a very part-time activity for Jim.
>> Keep trying and eventually he'll respond.  It may take days or weeks.
>>
>> Jim offers a GE controller.  IIRC it's a bit on the pricey side but
>> looks to be a solid choice.  I don't know of anything other than Jim's
>> package that's closer to being an actual ET controller kit.
>>
>> Other controllers will probably be cheaper, but will require some
>> moderately significant electrical / electronic chops to adapt and install.
>>
>> Alltrax once made a controller designed for the ET.  It worked very well.
>> They discontinued it in 2018 when they redesigned their controller range.
>> They hadn't sold enough of the first model to make a new one
>> worthwhile. If memory serves, the only reason that they ever made an
>> ET model at all was that at the time they had an engineer on the staff who
> owned an ET.
>>
>> Several people here have used Curtis golf car controllers, apparently
>> with success.  Some electrical design work is required.
>>
>> Probably an Alltrax could also be used.
>>
>> Any series motor controller is a bit iffy with an ET motor.  The ET
>> motor inductance is lower than a series motor controller usually
>> expects, so the controller's current limit may not be able to react
>> fast enough.  If you use a series motor golf car controller I
>> recommend getting the highest current capacity that you can afford.
>>
>> 4QD controllers from the UK are harder to come by than Curtis or even
>> Alltrax, but I think might be a better choice.  they're meant for PM
>> motors but should work fine on an ET sepex motor if you rig up field
> control.
>> Some 4QD models have brake release outputs that can be used to operate
>> a field relay.
>>
>> I may have a slightly used older 4QD with brake output for sale soon.
>>
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> Note: mail sent to the "etpost" address will not reach me.  To send me
>> a private message, please use the address shown at the bottom of this
>> page : http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elec-trak mailing list
>> Elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
>> https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elec-trak mailing list
> Elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
> https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Elec-trak Digest, Vol 19, Issue 103
> ******************************************
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 20:42:42 -0400
> From: Chad Bush <bushman165s@aol.com>
> To: "John Hosken (USA)" <john.hosken@usa.net>
> Cc: elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
> Subject: Re: (ET) E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit
> Message-ID: <1a2bb4a7-f28d-4ae4-90e9-5b838135e0a5@email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/attachments/20211105/3d254d16
> /attachment.htm>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 22:19:21 -0400
> From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@drmm.net>
> To: elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
> Subject: Re: (ET) E-20 Rebuild w/Electronic Controller Kit
> Message-ID: <6185ADE9.2271.4E3EA9AB@evpost.drmm.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 5 Nov 2021 at 20:34, Rob Brockway via Elec-trak wrote:
>
>> First how much braking can you get from regen on the 4q?  Is it good
>> enough to not use the mechanical brake?
>
> If memory serves, 4QD's website used to say that with either the 2- or 4-
> quadrant controllers, you usually only needed a mechanical brake as a
> parking brake.  I can't confirm that though, because (full disclosure) I
> never actually installed mine in the R36 it was meant for.   I just tested
> it running the motor with the trans in neutral. 
>
> Years ago, riding with a friend, I asked him why he hadn't fixed his car's
> balky windshield wipers.  He replied, "When it's raining, it's too wet to
> fix 'em; and when it's not, I don't need 'em and I forget about it.  So I
> just look between the raindrops." 
>
> I was kind of like that with the tractors.  In the summer I was using the
> mower and didn't want to take it apart to install the controller.  In the
> winter I wasn't using it and had plenty of time, but then it was too darn
> cold in the garage to mess with something that wasn't essential.  So I put
> up with the clutch.
>
>>
>> Did the altrax have regen?
>
> Mine has mild regen.  The effect depends on what gear the trans is in. 
> Especially in the higher gears, the tractor does speed up more going
> downhill than it did with the old GE contactors. 
>
> The Alltrax also has (had) plug braking.  It switches over to that when the
> brake switch is opened.  The controller effectively shorts the armature and
> modulates the field current.  This again is more of a mechanical brake
> supplement than a brake replacement.  It definitely won't give you whiplash.
>
> If you're crazy enough, you can switch the tractor right from forward into
> reverse without stopping.  Nothing gets broken.  The controller brings the
> tractor to a stop, and then ramps up the speed in reverse.  Or vice versa.
>
> The controller also uses plug braking to hold the tractor still when it's
> parked.  This is kind of entertaining to watch.  If you're on a slope, the
> tractor will roll a little and then just calmly, quietly stop.
>
> All in all, the Alltrax made my E15 noticeably more civilized.  But I
> realize that it's not for everyone.  Well, now, it's not for anyone. 
> Whatever.
>
> PS - I've never actually used the Alltrax laptop config software, but I'm
> pretty sure that the plug braking current is adjustable with it.  The regen
> might also be, but I'm less sure about that. 
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
> address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>     This raises a number of questions, such as "what's actually wrong
>     with people?," and "is this legal in Spain?"
>
>                                                   -- Found on the net = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elec-trak mailing list
> Elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
> https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Elec-trak Digest, Vol 19, Issue 104
> ******************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elec-trak mailing list
> Elec-trak@cosmos.phy.tufts.edu
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